1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:44,560 Hello everybody, this is a disembodied me because I'm not really here, I'm currently 2 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,960 in China, just before the Beijing Modular Show, which you will see videos coming back 3 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:56,560 from us, and then later on Music China, and in a sort of bizarre time travel kind of scenario, 4 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:02,040 we've got a guest who I'm going to be meeting in China, but will also be here before China, 5 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,080 this is, it's almost too much to kind of think, but we'll get onto that in a sec, I just wanted 6 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:12,400 to tell you, actually, yeah, coming up obviously, we've got, you will have seen Brooklyn Modular, 7 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Brooklyn Synth and Pedal Expo this weekend, Matt's been over there recording, we've also 8 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,720 had, you will also have had a few exciting videos that came out yesterday, because Tuesday 9 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:27,440 the 20th of October seems to be the time that everybody wants to release stuff, so after 10 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:32,440 a quiet summer, we've just got a splurge of stuff, so you've probably got lots of things 11 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,120 to talk about, we're not talking about them, because this is a pre-record, do you see where 12 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,200 I'm getting? Anyway, I didn't really want to, I'm trying to make it kind of as obvious 13 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,880 as possible, we'll get onto that, so I'm going to run this as if we're a live show, it's 14 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:49,040 not a live show, so what I normally do now is play a little reminder to join us on, as 15 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,960 a member, incidentally, I'm going to be posting some travelogue stuff and some stuff behind 16 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,600 the scenes from China, which will be my sort of general experience, outside of all the 17 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,480 other videos, so if you want to hook up to those, you can join us as members, anyway, 18 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:51,360 back after this. Indeed, and so we're back in the room, and I want to welcome Gertz from 19 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:58,080 Erika Synth, who will have a little title here, in a bizarre twist, Gertz, you're going 20 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,200 to China tomorrow, in real time, obviously, and we'll meet there, because you're going 21 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:10,160 to be at Beijing Modular, have you been before? No, actually, this is my first proper Asia 22 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:17,400 trip, except Japan, where I've been a couple of times, but yes, I'm joining your split 23 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:25,320 personality stream. Yeah, it's weird, I've never been to China either, but I have been 24 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,200 to Japan a couple of times, so we're going to have a pretty much parallel experience, 25 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,720 I'd think, so if, like me, you end up sort of thinking, I can't eat any more wriggly 26 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,280 food, you know, I'll meet you somewhere, we can go and have a sandwich, or something kind 27 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,160 of normal, just to sort of decompress, so I'll make a date for you, I don't know how 28 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:50,120 adventurous your palate is, but I can't speak for, I can only speak for myself. No dogs, 29 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:55,800 no dogs for me. I think that's a thing of the past, I think that's something that doesn't 30 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,800 really happen anymore, but we must try and stop being stereotypical about it, I'm very 31 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,360 excited, it's going to be fun. Anyway, so really, the reason Gertz is here is because 32 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,520 we're talking, there's been a lot of talk about firmware hacking, and sort of the use 33 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,600 of AI for this thing has enabled this, but before we get on to kind of expanding on 34 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:21,040 that, I've also got Pauly, who's there in Birmingham, we did a show yesterday, so this 35 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:26,280 is a week, this will be out on, I think, October the 21st, I believe is the plan. How are you 36 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:33,280 Pauly? It hasn't been a week, it's only been a day, but I haven't seen you in ages, Nick, 37 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:38,920 how have you been? Yeah, good, thank you. I love it, no. My flight was fine. Really good, 38 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:46,840 yes, yeah, brilliant. I'm good, I'm going to the Conservatoire tomorrow to have another few 39 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:55,640 meetings and look around in Birmingham, just to start doing the joyful exercise of risk assessing 40 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:04,600 everything for our needs, because for everyone who isn't initiated, including Gertz, I'll explain, 41 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:10,920 we're going to run disability music workshops, so we have to make sure everything is safe, 42 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:16,920 essentially, and fit for purpose, and it's, I think it's quite an old historic building, so 43 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:22,680 we'll just see how it all works, and I'm sure there'll be workarounds and things like that, 44 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:28,600 so that's going to be fun, but yeah, it'll be nice, so that's me anyway. Excellent, well, 45 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,800 I could go to our three up, I mean, the reason we're here is we, Gertz actually reached out to 46 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:40,200 me via email a couple of days ago and said, what do you, what do you think about all this sort of 47 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,840 firmware hacking and the news, you know, because there was, we've got a few touch points to run 48 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:50,680 as rough topics, but essentially, I think Electron had recently said that they weren't allowing people 49 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:56,360 to talk, to post news about their firmware hacks, but there's all these other kind of things coming 50 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:02,040 out, lots of, it seems to be half, some of it is endorsed, some of it is open source, so it's okay, 51 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:08,360 some of it's for, for instruments and equipment that's been discontinued, so where does that 52 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,840 stand, but I mean, ultimately, it's a real thorny subject, what was it that triggered you 53 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:16,680 to sort of reach out, I mean, what was the kind of, the thing that made you want to talk about it? 54 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:27,240 We had a discussion in our, in our headquarters about this trend happening, 55 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:37,480 and two days ago, a day before yesterday, a support ticket was submitted that some of our 56 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:45,800 modular users improved our black sequencer, so that was actually after I reached you out, 57 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:56,600 and he added some features that kind of make sense, and so in generative mode, 58 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:04,120 which is this magic mode, so to make it more musical, and yeah, that was, that was after, 59 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,400 actually, I reached you out, but basically, yes, all this discussion about Electron gear being, 60 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:20,520 being improved, what it means for manufacturers, what it means for support, and how it can impact 61 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:25,880 industry in general, so I thought it would be a nice topic to discuss, actually. Excellent, well, 62 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,960 and that triggered me, I know, I need to have a filler show while I'm away for two weeks, 63 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,760 because of my terrible lack of planning, and it sort of popped into my lap, which is fantastic, 64 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,520 but those, immediately, those questions are really interesting, because I think one people, 65 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:46,200 you know, the, the, the, probably the end user is, why shouldn't I, I own it, I can be, I can do what 66 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,680 I like, but there have got to be a couple of factors that, that are, have to be considered, 67 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,480 and I guess the first one is, they have to decompile what you've done, which is your 68 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:01,640 own proprietary code, which is not, not designed, unless it's open source, to be modified, to be 69 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:07,400 picked apart, and to be improved upon, does that present problems in itself, or is that, 70 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,120 I guess it depends on manufacturer to manufacturer, right? 71 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:24,680 True, you see, the guys who do hacking, or let's say improvements on, on our, on instruments, 72 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:30,520 they do not have full picture, how the, how the instrument is designed, you know, 73 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:39,160 and of course, by help of AI, you can inject some bits and pieces in some parts of the firmware, 74 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:49,080 and so, but, but what are consequences of that, you know, does it, how it impact other parts of 75 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:57,560 the, of the firmware, you know, and functionality, that's, that nobody can tell, and, and, 76 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:08,440 and we agreed with our support guys that we cannot support cases like that, so the best 77 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:15,320 we can advise is just do factory research, and hope for the best, you know, that it goes back 78 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:20,600 to the original form. Oh, that's interesting, I mean, yeah, I hadn't really thought about that, 79 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:25,160 I mean, I suppose, and that, that support issue is one of the factors, because as we know, I mean, 80 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,680 certainly from software houses, and other people factoring in the amount of resources that have 81 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:35,240 to go into resource, into supporting a product, whether it be hardware or software, hopefully 82 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,520 hardware, none at all, because it's all perfect, and everything, your design is impeccable, and, 83 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,120 you know, there are no issues with hardware, there are no issues with firmware, and you can only do 84 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:50,920 so much, so it adds, what you're saying is, it adds a lot of extra, or could add a lot of extra 85 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,560 load onto a manufacturer, whether they be small or large enough to eat that extra load, right? 86 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:02,920 Correct, but yeah, that depends how a manufacturer approaches it, you know, 87 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:11,080 maybe the update is kind of nice, but imagine the amount of possible variations of 88 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:22,520 of those hacks that can pour in, and even responding to each inquiry takes some time, 89 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:33,160 yeah, so yes, yeah, so yeah, we decided that this is where is our, where our like red line is, that 90 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:43,880 okay, if people do something, and do some hacks that make the instrument more 91 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:54,440 like easy to use for specific creative intention, or something, then sure, do it, but 92 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:01,400 if something goes wrong, then our advice will be just do a factory reset, and that's it, you know, 93 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:07,720 because we cannot track, yeah, we have no resources of tracking all possible changes, 94 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,360 no, that's understandable, so is there, I mean, is there a possibility that something could 95 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:19,240 irrevocably brick a piece of software, a piece of hardware, or is there always that sort of 96 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:24,520 backstop, I mean, or can a system be designed so that, you know, whatever happens, you can always 97 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,920 re-flash it, and it'll be okay, I mean, is there, are there, or are there things that could be done 98 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,160 that would might, I'm not talking necessarily Erika since, but you may know, you know, that 99 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:43,640 this is a possibility. If a bootloader is somehow affected, then you cannot do firmware update in 100 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:49,800 normal way, just plugging a USB cord, or something, so you need a dedicated flash, 101 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:58,200 flasher device, or programming device, that reverts the firmware, so that's a worst case 102 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:06,520 scenario, and yeah, nobody knows, you know, how the code is impacted, and what happens, you know. 103 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:11,800 Oh, interesting, I hadn't thought about that. Have you got any questions about that, 104 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:17,240 Pauli, because I think it's, I'm well aware that I've got a big list, and we could easily, 105 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,880 I could easily dominate this, I mean, do you, I suppose the question, yeah, 106 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:28,760 one of the questions for me is, is it worth it, I suppose, you know, I don't know whether, because, 107 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:36,600 you know, there are sometimes firmware is released by the manufacturer that causes a problem as well, 108 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,840 and, you know, that these things do happen, they're not finite, you know, people can make 109 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,760 mistakes across all areas, hopefully the manufacturer knows what it's doing, you know, but 110 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:45,880 that can happen too. 111 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:59,800 It's a difficult one, isn't it, because the, I feel, you know, I wrote an article about this 112 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:10,040 the other week, about firmware hacking, the great debate on whether companies should embrace this, 113 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:15,720 or whether they should try and protect their, you know, protect their work and stuff like that, 114 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,440 and how is that going to be seen by the community if some companies go, 115 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:29,880 you know, have at it, the floodgates are open, and if some manufacturers don't, 116 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:37,880 and the thing that concerns me is that there doesn't seem to be, 117 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:48,840 a particularly nice reasoning behind it, or a particularly kind reasoning behind it. 118 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:56,520 I feel it's all what I'd call a bit edgelord, and what I mean by that is, 119 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:06,440 in the responses to my article, I saw a lot of people saying things like, you know, 120 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:16,920 they've been keeping things from us for years, they've been keeping features from us for years, 121 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:23,880 you know, like a conspiracy or something like that, and people almost kind of were happy to, 122 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:32,040 are happy to see synth companies burn, you know, because they've kept things away from us for years, 123 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:38,360 away from us for years, and I think it's, I mean, to be polite, I think it's short-sighted, 124 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:46,360 because we've just got these tools which allow for things like rapid decompilation of 125 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:52,840 binaries, and allow you to inject kind of custom coding and stuff, so that, you know, 126 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:59,640 lots of people can alter hardware in a way that wasn't possible before, 127 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:07,240 but we all need to remember that that wasn't the world a year ago, two years ago, and that 128 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:18,040 when these companies, ErikaSynths, Electron, were creating these things, DSP was something that, 129 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:23,640 and it still is if you want good DSP, something you have to pay for, you have to pay 130 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:31,160 a programmer money to develop features, and also, here's the other thing, you have to make 131 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:37,880 sure the UI makes sense. I find that some of these community firmwares overstuff, 132 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:45,160 they overstuff the UI, right, so they put too many features in, so it's tricky to find, 133 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:53,560 and also it has to be stable, a manufacturer has to create a stable black box, whereas these 134 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,840 people who create custom firmwares, you know, don't have to do that, and I think, you know, 135 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:10,120 potentially there are different ways that companies can respond to this. Firstly, 136 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:17,320 they could lock the hardware the hell down using things like crypto tips, you know, 137 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:27,000 like trusted platform modules, which are little encoded, 72-bit encoded chips, I think they cost 138 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,160 about, if you buy them in bulk, like about a dollar, it doesn't add much to the price of the 139 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:43,400 synth, and that means only properly signed code can even run on the hardware, or the other way, 140 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:51,720 do manufacturers go, right, well, either we create, either we put an analog component, 141 00:16:51,720 --> 00:17:00,040 like a filter or something, on every module to make something that can't be kind of cloned by AI, 142 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:08,840 or do we just put, like Korg does with their SDK, do we put an open source little playground, 143 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:17,080 fenced-off playground in every product now, just to satiate that kind of hacking spirit, 144 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:23,560 and would that allow the manufacturers and the community to kind of find, 145 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,160 you know, a customised, yeah, that's really interesting, a walled garden, if you will, 146 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:37,960 yeah, that's really interesting, I mean, does this, Gerts, does this make you think about ways 147 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:44,200 that your hardware could be designed so that it is more bulletproof, or, you know, what, 148 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,880 going forward, is this something that you incorporate, you think about incorporating 149 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:53,960 into further future products on how to combat this, or you just, hands off, it's over to you, 150 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,000 we have to stay at our position, do whatever you like, but you can't, you can't come back 151 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:05,640 on us because, you know, it's just, we can't possibly support it? Most of our hardware 152 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:18,520 is partly bulletproof because it is all analogue or hybrid, like 70% of things is analogue, 153 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:30,200 but I 100% agree with Pauli's point about user interface and user experience when operating the 154 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:39,640 instrument, so I love to quote Napoleon that, and we actually approach it, we use this approach in 155 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:46,200 our user interface development, that he said that the essence of strategy is sacrifice, 156 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:59,880 meaning that you put aside features that are nice to have, but that are, that make user interface 157 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:06,040 more complicated, user experience is not there anymore, and so, and you cannot imagine how many 158 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:13,000 features we set aside when developing an instrument, and of course, there is so much to add 159 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:21,960 to the instrument, and to make it more capable, of course, to the limit of computing power it has, 160 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:29,000 or DSP processing capabilities, you know, that's also a question, you know, you can add 161 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:39,080 some new features, but the processor simply cannot do all computations in that, yeah, 162 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:47,080 exactly, exactly, so then you overclock it or something, you know, so yeah, these are all 163 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:54,680 things like a technical perspective, but like my favorite thing is really what you sacrifice in 164 00:19:54,760 --> 00:20:03,320 order to have this nice experience when using instruments, and that's where Erika's things 165 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:11,080 somehow excel, you know, our sequencers, I'm really, I'm genuinely proud of what we do in terms of 166 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:22,040 user experience, user interfaces, and adding something to that, yeah, that's actually 167 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,800 fascinating, and I totally get that, because also it's the vision of the company, and then 168 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:31,880 somebody else will come along, I guess, hold that thought there, and I do have the business of 169 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,840 sponsors for the show to include, so we'll be back shortly, just after this, 170 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,760 excellent, so sorry, Paul, I think you wanted to come in there, and I think that curated sort of 171 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,480 noticed that sense, and a loss of control of that is quite an important point, I think, 172 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:29,080 yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna just mention an ErikaSynths product, I think gets it absolutely 173 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,880 bang on, this isn't an advert, by the way, I just genuinely love it, and that's the 174 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:42,440 Percon's voice Eurorack module, because it's got such a range of different digital synthesis types, 175 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:50,680 but they're all just kept in a UI, which is just so tweakable, that I'm sure they could 176 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:58,840 have put even more algorithms and stuff in the Percon's, you know, than, and completely overstuff 177 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:06,440 it if they wanted, but the, it's just the kind of perfect amount of controls and CV, just to, 178 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:12,680 you know, keep it intuitive, basically, so yeah, I was just going to point that out as a highlight 179 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:23,080 for me of ErikaSynths design, to balance out this unexpected advertising, I'm wearing a 180 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:31,800 Shachmat modular t-shirt, so, okay, well, here's a thought, here's a, so, so, I mean, in the same 181 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,720 way that, I mean, it's really interesting that, you know, coming back to Korg, as you mentioned, 182 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:41,960 they've all, you know, their foresight, in a way, I mean, I think maybe accidental, or possibly 183 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:47,400 planned, is really fascinating, but as a result, we're still not, I mean, I'm not getting tons of 184 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:52,440 press releases about people who are writing vibe-coded SDK kind of thing, you'd, I know you 185 00:22:52,440 --> 00:23:00,680 did one for the, the Drumlog, but it's interesting that building extra spare capacity into future 186 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:06,040 hardware, so that there is the potential, if you're a machine-based thing, so you say, okay, 187 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,600 if you load this into it, you know, these are the parameters you get, do you think there's a future 188 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,480 in terms of the way you build things, like, you know, you're, so that there's a little bit of 189 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,600 spare capacity, I mean, are, or are, when you build, are you right up against the stops for 190 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,040 the chips, I mean, do you have certain amount of headroom, I mean, how do you approach this, 191 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,280 because, I mean, chips are expensive, you know, you can't just kind of go, oh, we'll make it twice 192 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,720 as powerful as it needs to be, because that'll cost a fortune, right, in the bond cost. 193 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,000 This is actually what we seriously reconsidered after 194 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:49,080 microprocessor crisis, which come during, came during the COVID, because back then we realized 195 00:23:49,080 --> 00:24:00,280 that we literally used a unique microprocessor for every single module we had, because we selected 196 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:07,800 the microprocessor that is just enough for the task, you know, that's what Nicky was saying, 197 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:15,480 you know, so, of course, there is a lot of possibilities still to do some hacking, 198 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:23,320 but, yes, there is some threshold on what you can do with that, but then we, of course, 199 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,680 changed our approach, because we realized that that was, like, pure nightmare to manage 200 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:35,880 20 different microprocessors, you know, when you have shortage of every single one. 201 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,880 And then, yeah, we started, we started optimizing, and, of course, we have 202 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,040 more headroom in processing power now in our instruments currently, 203 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:56,680 but, yeah, still, as these vibe coders do not have full picture on what is hardware and what 204 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,960 like original firmware is running on the instrument, you know, it's always, it always 205 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,000 takes some risk. I suppose they wouldn't know, they wouldn't have the same tools to say, you know, 206 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,720 this is the CPU, it's running, you know, with this much headroom, you can't just do a top command 207 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:19,560 on the command line on your instruments and have that running. But I suppose, but that's what you 208 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:25,720 saying, by standardizing the DSP platform for a series of instruments or a particular, you know, 209 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:31,320 like for a couple of years, you've got the opportunity to buy in larger amounts, which 210 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,200 reduce the overall cost, which means that you can be more efficient in your build cost, and then 211 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,880 some instruments might have a bit more headroom than others, or some instruments might have a lot 212 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,000 of headroom because they don't need to use all that, but it makes developing easier. Do you think 213 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,480 there's, I mean, I guess that the other thing that's really hard is you could be completely 214 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,440 transparent, or a manufacturer could be completely transparent and go, this is how much we use, 215 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,000 you know, there's this much headroom, here's, maybe here are some tools so that if you do anything, 216 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,240 watch out for this number, because if it ever spikes above this, then it's going to be too much, 217 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,440 so almost making it easier for people to do that, I don't know, does that, or is that, that's 218 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,480 too much like the fact that the crown jewels, the family secrets, I mean, how does that, would that 219 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:26,440 work? Is that a naive approach? You see, we are having this discussion, you know, if we would 220 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:35,960 rewind like 100 years back, then this process, what we are witnessing now would take a decade, 221 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:44,680 I guess, but we are talking now months, you know, this first electron posts appeared like 222 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:52,040 three, four weeks ago or something, you know, so we actually have not, haven't had time actually to 223 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,560 consider this, so it's, it's just happening as we, as we see it, you know, and it's happening 224 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:06,520 in days, like we had our chat, I wrote you an email about this topic, and next day our 225 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:15,320 black sequencer was improved, and we didn't see it coming. Yeah, I suppose so, and again, yeah, 226 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:21,240 yeah, but, and again, that, that just illustrates how fast it is, and most good companies are 227 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,600 planning at least one or two years ahead with a sort of product roadmap, so that's it, so building 228 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:34,360 that kind of nimbleness into, into your direction forward is, I can't imagine that's, that's 229 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:43,480 particularly easy. Imagine there are, there are some business models that are 230 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:53,480 being, like, ruined at the moment, for instance, take, take the VST company, who makes a business 231 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:02,040 model in a way that we, we sell you a plugin, and then we consider selling some updates, 232 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:10,920 or some extra features, for instance, and that, that will not work anymore, and 233 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,360 and that's entire, and that's entire industry ruined, possibly. 234 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:25,480 Yeah, my, my, my friend, ex-colleague from advertising agency, he was a creative director 235 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:34,440 there, he's now in esoterics and in yoga, so he developed a synthesis, virtual synthesizer 236 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:42,920 for, that emulates those crystal balls that are used, and, or copper balls, you know, 237 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:50,760 in used in meditations. He had, he has zero, he has zero experience in, in coding, and in 238 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:59,960 basically music technology. He showed me nicely sounding VST instrument that, okay, okay, it 239 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:09,640 doesn't have integration with, with large platforms or so, so it's an app, but to integrate 240 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:18,200 it with, with, to make it a proper VST instrument, it's maybe just this much stretch, and, and it 241 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:23,960 will be there, you know. So, yeah, those developments are quite impressive, I must say. 242 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,640 But I suppose the thing is, is that the things that have their own proprietary technology in 243 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,600 their own specific synth engines, I mean, you know, we've seen UI hacks on various plugs, 244 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,600 you don't really see them on, you know, like the big stuff, the G4 stuff, the Arturia stuff, 245 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,600 the, I mean, whatever, you don't see people hacking like they used to with ResEdit, you know, 246 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:48,120 where you change the knobs and all this thing. I mean, it doesn't seem to be a thing, and I suppose 247 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,680 decompiling and recompiling VSTs, that's, I mean, do you think that's, well, you know, Paul, do you 248 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,320 think that's something that's going to happen next? I mean, I don't know if it's even viable, 249 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,920 because I guess the code must be locked down to a degree, I don't know. 250 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:06,200 It's, uh, from, from, obviously, there's things I can't talk about on podcasts, but from my 251 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,800 perspective, it's already happening. 252 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:10,360 Right. 253 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,640 It's already happening, and not just in our industry, and not just plugins, either. I saw 254 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:24,360 that someone had vibe coded, essentially, a completely feature-complete Adobe Suite 255 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:32,600 with Photoshop, Premiere thing, and it was using new code, but it was going for feature parity 256 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:41,800 kind of coding, where it's re-implementing new stuff. So, in my mind, it's literally already 257 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,920 happening, where people are, you know, decompiling things, re-compiling things. 258 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,240 Okay, well, here, but here's a thought, I mean, is that... 259 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,280 There was one, there was one, I... 260 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,760 Go, sorry, go, Paul, yeah. 261 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,560 There was one I saw, I've got an example, there was one I saw, um, just a few days ago, 262 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:13,800 where there's, um, an Ensoniq SQ80 plugin called, uh, SQ8L, and it's been 32-bit forever, 263 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:19,240 and it's a really good emulation, free emulation of the Ensoniq SQ80, which, of course, is quite 264 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:27,240 a classic synthesizer, and bam, in the last couple of days, there's been a 64-bit, uh, 265 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,120 binary created of it. 266 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:30,280 Okay. 267 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,520 By decompilation, so it's already happening. 268 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:40,760 I suppose my question is, if that, is that a bad thing? I mean, if we take the kind of, 269 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:45,800 the output of everybody who makes things, that the reason that Adobe and these other companies 270 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:51,080 got ahead is because they came up with unique ideas. If other people are building on that, 271 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,640 and moving forward, we see this all the time in other industries, we see it in DAWs, 272 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:01,560 where companies, you know, like, Cubase will introduce certain features that will then, 273 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:08,040 um, be emulated or adopted and improved, and then Studio One will do the same, and then, 274 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,040 you know, Ableton will do something, and all these things kind of move, there's always, 275 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:18,360 like, an arms race to a degree, and limiting it to just the three or four big software houses, 276 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:24,040 is that, is that okay? Should it, would it make sense to have wider periods of this, 277 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,840 and then it's, then it's just a question of if somebody at Steinberg, for instance, 278 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,760 saw what somebody had hacked on their DAW, they went, that's a great idea, 279 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,960 and they could implement it, and make sure it worked properly, and didn't break anything. 280 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,200 Is that bad? I mean, is that, is that a bad thing? I don't know. What, what, what do you think? 281 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:44,680 It's… 282 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,760 Anybody. That's odd, isn't it? 283 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:48,680 It's… 284 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,600 I suppose it's stealing, is it stealing code? Yeah, I guess. 285 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:59,000 I think, like anything, it could just be the removal of the, the middle, 286 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:09,080 from everything, you know, people who make things in the middle, and, and try and make a profit of 287 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:15,960 them. Maybe the big, big, big, big, huge companies will be able to, to take the, take the, the hit 288 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:25,080 of all of this competition. The, the, the, there's going to be a brand new low-end, 289 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,360 massive amount of low-end kind of, you know, people in their bedrooms creating 290 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:37,160 innovative products that can professionally compete now with stuff, and I think maybe 291 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:43,640 where it will suffer is the middle, and I think that happened in, in, in music as well, you know, 292 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:50,360 with the whole end of physical media, where we went into mp3s, and it had the same kind of 293 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:57,800 slightly edgelord approach. All information should be free, but when, but again, I feel it's 294 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:04,680 short-sighted, because when you say all information should be free, the, the bigger entities can, 295 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:12,600 can tank that hit, whereas the, the middling ones can't. Yeah, that's, that's my prediction. 296 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:21,000 And also, I guess we need to distinguish hardware companies and, and software companies, because 297 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:29,320 yes, in, in case of hardware companies, you still make, you make an instrument, you know, you have, 298 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:38,360 you have a hardware platform that is, that has certain features, and certain features can be 299 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:47,480 added, and so, but, and yeah, a company can intentionally make it. We had several, like, 300 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:56,280 attempts, actually, for, for modular, like this 4ms VC Iraq module, where you just import, 301 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:06,920 import, buy a bunch of VCV modules, and, and operate, yeah, exactly. So, that, I don't see 302 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,920 that, yeah, I don't see most, many of them succeeded, you know, they, they did some business, 303 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:22,200 but, but somehow, it's, this trend has not get, got, like, broad scale adoption. But in case of 304 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:32,200 software companies, it's, it's more, it's more, I'd say, painful for them, because somebody, 305 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:40,280 for instance, comes up with user interface. So, the VST has to look like this, you know, 306 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:49,400 it has to have this set of features, and then, if somebody, somebody just does everything, you know, 307 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,600 like, based on, like, vibe codes, based on that interface, you know, that's already 308 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,920 kind of copyright violation, and also software. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's interesting. 309 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:07,800 Well, yeah, no, I agree, I mean, it's interesting, I've literally, this should be going out maybe 310 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,840 tomorrow, if you're watching the show now, as it were, not tomorrow, as in, anyway, you, 311 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:18,200 you know what I mean. We, I did an interview, I did a piece with the Natural Audio AL1, 312 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,080 which is a mastering limiter, high-end plug-in, you know, it's 299 bucks, yet, 313 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:30,440 they are selling by the bucket load, because it has a sound and a thing that people are responding 314 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:36,040 to, and they're, and they're doing extremely well, just word of mouth, just, so the notion that 315 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:43,000 larger companies only, only get to a certain point, it's not just about the, you know, 316 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,680 as in all industries, there's often, there's winners and losers, and people who make it, 317 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,320 and people who don't, so, I mean, I think it's, in a way, you know, the democratization of music, 318 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,960 yes, there are lots of people who lost in the middle, but there are lots of people, 319 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,120 little people, who would never have even got to the first, or second, or third rung on the ladder, 320 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,560 and be making half a living, or a third of a living, or a decent living, out of doing what 321 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:09,000 they love, you know, which is assisted by technology of delivery, and democratization 322 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,680 of social media, all of those sort of things. Hold that thought. Are you calling me a hypocrite 323 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:18,040 there, Nick? No, no, I'm not, I'm just, I'm just putting another point of view. We'll be, 324 00:37:18,040 --> 00:38:22,960 we'll be back after this short break. Okay, so, to bring this round to, you know, we are, 325 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,680 I hate this phrase, but it sort of applies here, we are where we are, which is, we're dealing with 326 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,160 this stuff, manufacturers are having to respond very quickly, as we said, Electron have kind of 327 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,120 said, you know, we're not going to be allowing people to, but by the same token, they've also 328 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:43,360 said, it's fine, the Machinedron X oscillate, operating system, they're fine with that, 329 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:51,120 because that's obsolete hardware. Is there a world in which this extends the life of existing 330 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:56,720 hardware, so it can continue to be made, because other people are improving the firmware, the 331 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:02,000 burden, if you like, is taken away from the manufacturer, you know, they can say, hands off, 332 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,160 or hands on, they can say, yeah, we've tested it, it seems okay, but again, it's up to you, 333 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,720 but it means that people will then still buy the hardware, because they can add those additional 334 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:14,720 things, and then, you know, there could be a way forward to do it. I mean, you look at the 335 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:22,640 FM1, which is a 60, 70 quid platform that BoardGirl has done, it's firmware, it's really easy to do, 336 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:28,720 it seems to be almost, it's a symbiotic relationship, and that's the thing that 337 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:34,000 I find interesting, which could this actually be a positive thing, Gertz? 338 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:43,920 Yeah, that's, this FM1 thing is a nice example of providing a platform for experimentation, 339 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:53,440 so a hardware manufacturer makes his profit from selling the synth, and then, yeah, 340 00:39:54,320 --> 00:40:04,160 people feel encouraged to hack it, and make, personalize in the ways they like, you know, 341 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:19,920 and so, yeah, it somehow amortizes this insane, I don't know how it's in English, 342 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:29,200 and sustainability of running all this AI infrastructure, which is a devastating thing, 343 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:35,760 you know, so maybe it does not offset it, so it does not offset it, of course, completely, 344 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:43,360 because it's just a tiny part of the business, what AI does, actually, but 345 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:51,600 maybe, so yeah, that's about providing platforms for experimentation, and then, of course, 346 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:58,880 hardware manufacturers have to reconsider their business models, for instance, I love motorcycles, 347 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,800 aesthetically, I prefer motorcycles over synthesizers, for instance, KTM had terrible 348 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:13,600 backlash when they sold their top-of-the-line adventure bike, and then, after a thousand 349 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:20,800 kilometers, they say, well, no, we are, we are discontinued, but we are switching off some 350 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:28,720 features, like traction control, or something, which you can get back by paying extra 3.5k, 351 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:37,360 you know, so that was like terrible backlash from the industry, and so, yeah, the business model 352 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:43,280 itself has to be reconsidered for hardware companies, or you sell a complete synth, 353 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:52,240 which has, which is inherently analog, and most, you can hack maybe some control 354 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:59,200 details, you know, of sequencer, or whatever, what, what engines are, like, how engines are 355 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:07,440 talking to each other, or something, but, but other ways, really, provide open-source platform, 356 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,800 make big money, make money from, from the hardware, and, and that's it, but then, 357 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:21,760 that's it, but then, it's middle-sized companies at the risk, because you cannot 358 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:30,240 make cheap enough hardware, you know, to compete with the larger ones. 359 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:36,560 Yeah, that's understandable, yeah, that's an, that, that's certainly a point, I mean, if I was Korg, 360 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:41,040 I mean, and we do know, what was it, the, is it the, the, the, the, the MicroKorg, 361 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,880 oh, I can't remember what it is, the one that's basically got 32 slots for, 362 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:51,840 for their, their APK stuff, I mean, you could, you can see that, I mean, if I was them, I'd be 363 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,760 plugging that like crazy, and go, yeah, make stuff for it, make stuff for it, and, you know, get people 364 00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,800 to, to demonstrate how well it works, and things, because that's ring-fence, you can't break it, 365 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:08,000 you can only make it, make that bit not work, until you fix the, your, your, your load plugin, 366 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,760 so that would sort of make sense, but that is, it's an interesting point of view, yeah. 367 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,760 Yeah, so, is it a positive thing, you asked, didn't you? 368 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,040 Yeah, can it be? 369 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:28,880 For the thing, yeah, for the things, for everything that I feel is a bit distasteful 370 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:34,720 with all of this, you know, like, for instance, I've, again, I can't really release, talk about 371 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:42,640 details, but I've seen current, current hardware synths that have been sold for, you know, decent 372 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:49,360 amount of money being hacked, and a software version being made that just runs on ARM, you 373 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:57,040 know, and I'm like, oh, that's, that's not good, but for every, every distasteful use of this, 374 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:05,520 I think there's also a, a positive, essentially, because we have to remember that not everyone has 375 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:15,200 money, and not everyone has money to satiate the latest, the latest piece of gear acquisition 376 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:25,360 syndrome. So, I imagine that for a lot of people, the, the Mwave FM firmware 377 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,640 hacking marathon, because it started with Bored Girl, but now there's, 378 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:38,960 well, let's imagine it's a week's time, or two weeks' time, and this is going out, 379 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:46,480 there are now 1500 firmwares available for the Mwave FM1. Let's see how close we get. 380 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:55,440 I even made a little meme, which said, this, this, it wasn't real, but I said, this firmware 381 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:04,320 turns your FM1 into a dating simulator, a virtual girlfriend who talks to you in FM synthesis, 382 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:10,320 depending on how you've treated them that day. But, you know, I, I bet that could actually be 383 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:18,640 made by Vibecoding. Yeah, for people who are, yeah, for people who are absolutely broke, 384 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,800 then this is a bit of a golden time, isn't it? Because they'll be able to 385 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:31,600 make their existing hardware do things they, they never imagined. So, I guess it's, 386 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:39,920 I guess it's essentially a neutral destabilizing force that is just shaking everything up, 387 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:47,760 and where it all lands, we don't know yet. Okay, here's another, another, another thought. 388 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:56,080 So, there's also, and this is a story as old as time, I bought Product X five years ago, 389 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,160 you said you was going to, it was going to do these things, you never fixed the bugs, 390 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,120 you never brought the features in, am I entitled to do what the hell I like, and then make it work, 391 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,400 and then possibly even sell my own version that improves the original hardware, even though you've 392 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:16,400 discontinued it? Or if it's not discontinued, where does that sort of lie? Would, if you're 393 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,680 then selling hardware based on the fact that my firmware makes it work better, for instance, 394 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:29,120 I mean, this is a notional concept, where, what does that mean? Gertz, you're the manufacturer, 395 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:42,080 sorry, I can only come to you. Now, you see, in a contemporary economy, people by default think 396 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:52,160 that there has to be a firmware update, and, and we, we have multiple occasions when we just release 397 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:58,880 the instrument, and, like, next day, somebody asks, so when were, when there is a firmware update? 398 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,680 But maybe we even did not intend to make a firmware update. 399 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:13,600 But is, is that just because you've got a wider user base, and things have been found that maybe, 400 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,680 you know, although I'm sure you or a manufacturer tests incessantly, there were just some edge cases 401 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,320 that, you know, don't immediately become obvious unless you're that user who uses it in a certain 402 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:31,520 way, so there's, yeah. Sure, sure, absolutely. We have actually a lot of, a lot of bugs discovered 403 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:40,000 during, during somebody filming a demo for our, for our instrument. Yeah, I've been there, I've done that, 404 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:46,400 not for you, but I've done that, yeah, definitely. Exactly, exactly, of course. So, yeah, there's 405 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:52,960 always a process, yeah, but what I, what I meant that people consider that there has to be firmware 406 00:47:52,960 --> 00:48:03,520 updates, have to be firmware updates automatically. Yeah, but, I mean, that all also comes back to the, 407 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:12,160 to the technology, because, like, a friend of mine composed Rock Opera on Commodore, say, 408 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:19,440 computer, you know, and, of course, you cannot vibe code, I'm not sure if you can vibe code it, 409 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:27,920 because, because, you know, it's such a different architecture and, and, yeah, 410 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:36,320 different peripheries and stuff like that, which, yeah, of course, there is, yeah, there is some, 411 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:46,160 some threshold where, where this stops. Yeah, I suppose the thing is also, 412 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:52,800 sometimes firmware stops being upgraded, because something gets discontinued, and there are many 413 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,880 reasons why something gets discontinued. It may just be that the hardware that's in it is no 414 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:02,240 longer viable, or you can't get the parts, or, you know, the processor doesn't exist anymore, 415 00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:07,680 or it has to be recoded, and that expense is too great. So, I mean, I suppose that's, that's where 416 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:14,000 we get all of these difficult grey areas, I suppose, and people, people from the outside 417 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,040 just go, well, why can't you just, you know, it's like, yeah, have you tried making something? 418 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:28,400 I know, I know a couple of, a couple of great composers and, and producers and musicians who 419 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:37,280 keep laptops without firmware update in their shelves with backing tracks, not backing tracks, 420 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:47,120 but with, with all projects for, yeah, for their albums, and they do not update any software there, 421 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:53,120 because the project will just break, and they have, of course, they are wealthy people, and 422 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:59,920 they have privilege to have a dedicated laptop for each, each project, and it, you know, so that's, 423 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:06,240 that's also, well, that, yeah, I mean, that's interesting, I mean, I know Yoad, who's a regular 424 00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:10,560 guest on this, he does that, he's got legacy machines, and I think, Pauly, you said you do, 425 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:19,120 you run some legacy machines as well, don't you? I, I've, I've got Win95, Win98, WinXP, 426 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:28,160 Max System 7, Max Snow Leopard, that's got some plugins that doesn't, don't run anymore, 427 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:34,960 so yeah, I've got, I've got quite a few thing, because they, because some of the plugins that 428 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:41,840 came out back in the day were absolutely amazing, and you'd have to spend serious money to replicate 429 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:48,480 the functionality, you know, I've got like, I think I've got the whole Waves Gold Collection 430 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:56,000 or something on one of them, look, a really old version. I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to 431 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:03,840 become, like, nostalgic, but I mean, the skill of coding back then, you know, was on different level, 432 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:09,280 I remember when I, when I started advert, working in advertising agencies, like, 433 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:16,560 most of data was transferred in floppy disks, you know, four megabytes, and, and we still could, 434 00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:24,720 could transfer entire designs to printing house on a floppy disk, you know, and so it works. 435 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,520 It does, yeah, that's interesting, I mean, I can also see, I mean, it would, 436 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:34,720 it makes sense for a company who do work in firmware and have coding, 437 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,080 there's a nice red floppy there, I've got some floppies ready, just to have somebody, 438 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,000 just for anyone who's really young and doesn't know what a floppy disk is. 439 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,360 So, as I was saying, I think, I think there's a, there's, is there, is there an argument for having, 440 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:57,200 like, so a mid-sized company has firmware developing across multiple platforms, you have, 441 00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:04,560 you know, you have various coders, is there an argument for having ring fencing a percentage 442 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:10,720 of time for those coders then to go crazy on the vibe coding thing, because they know the code, 443 00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:17,600 they know the, the, the capabilities of the machine, could they then improve and increase 444 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,760 the, the quality of the output with these tools, or is it not that simple? 445 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:35,440 We, our engineers do use AI tools to, to be more efficient, to, to write code, like, 446 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:43,040 you know, you need to look at the broader scale, of course, if, if the, if the coder is, 447 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:53,360 has, like, he's advanced one, then it's no problem to, to do that, but there were bigger companies 448 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:59,840 with, with multiple departments that do specific parts of the coding, and so then, 449 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:09,760 then reports are actually that productivity does not increase, because, like, senior coders have to 450 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:20,160 check this messy code from, from junior coders, and, and, you know, it's, it levels out somewhere 451 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:26,320 at the moment. Maybe these AI tools will improve, and, and it will be, it will be much, 452 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:33,120 like, will become more productive, but, but, yeah, I, I'm not denying we are using 453 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:40,160 AI tools for coding, and it's, it's really, it really improves productivity, yes. 454 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,640 But I guess the thing is, is you're delivering something that is commercially paid for 455 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,920 at scale, and has to work, and has to, had to meet certain standards, whereas me sitting in 456 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,240 the office and going, oh, I've written a new firmware thing for the pocket operator, or 457 00:53:54,240 --> 00:54:00,240 whatever, and now it does this thing, isn't it fun, is a completely different proposition, and, 458 00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:04,000 and because we can all post something to Instagram, go, hey, I want mine to do that, and, you know, 459 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:10,640 people can, can do or not. I think it seems like the argument is, it could be great, but it can 460 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,520 also be not. It's, it's, it's caveat emptor, isn't it? It's, you know, try it by all means, go for it 461 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:20,480 by all means, but we can't, you know, you can't expect the manufacturer to support it, or justify 462 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:25,120 not adding those features themselves, because they, as you say, they have the bigger picture, 463 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:30,000 so there's a sort of, the bigger picture is the thing. Does that seem like a good summary? 464 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:37,280 Yeah. So, anyway, Gerts, you're, you're going to Asia. I think it's probably time to wrap 465 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:42,160 things up a little bit. I, I had planned on, on, on introducing a load of videos and stuff, 466 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:47,200 but I think the intro, the, the, the discussion has been fascinating as it is. But what's next 467 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:52,560 for you, then? You're going to Asia, going to be, going to Beijing Modular, where I will be seeing 468 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,560 you, or have seen you, by the time this is, I don't know, this is all a bit weird. And then 469 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,440 exciting stuff, any, yeah, I guess you can't tell us, but, but products in development, 470 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:06,720 things on the go, all times, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm bringing some, 471 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:18,240 some exciting new modules to, to Beijing Modular. So, we haven't put out some new modules for a 472 00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:26,080 while. We're more focusing on, on desktop or standalone instruments. So, this development 473 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:31,680 took some time, but it's, it's, I'm super excited about it. So, tomorrow you will see it. 474 00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:42,000 But, yeah, I, I, just to, to wrap it up, I, I, we are living in amazing times again. You know, 475 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:51,280 at a certain point, I felt that, well, nothing like major happens in a span of our lifetime. 476 00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:57,760 You know, this will be some boring generation or something, but, but, but now, you know, see 477 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:06,240 how world is changing and, you know, instead of decades, some time ago, it's, it's months, 478 00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:12,320 it's months and we need to. I mean, our challenge, our challenge is as a society and governance and 479 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:17,760 administration is how we respond to that because, you know, you can't respond quickly enough if 480 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:22,320 things are changing that fast. And so, you have to be mindful of it. So, regulation is probably the 481 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:29,360 way to go at some point. But anyway, well, Paulie, thanks for coming on again. Next thing for you, 482 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,680 I guess, I've got something, I don't, it's weird because I don't know whether we can talk about it 483 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:40,720 yet because it's a week's time. I don't know. Stuff in the pipeline, stuff in the pipeline. 484 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:46,880 I, no, I thought I'd, I thought I'd end on something I've been musing about, you know, 485 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:56,160 just as a general overview of this whole topic. I think that we should, you know, if people want 486 00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:05,040 to dip their toes into AI and see what it offers and, and explore it, that's one thing, but I don't 487 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:13,040 think we should, we should give up our skills and our cognitive stuff, you know what I mean? 488 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:21,840 Because the industry is apparently four point something trillion in debt or projected to be 489 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:29,120 that much in debt. So, I don't think it's going to stay as it is forever. I think maybe this, 490 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:35,760 you know, AI coding tools might get way more expensive one day if, you know, it can't be 491 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,080 subsidized anymore, you know, because there's only so much money in the world, isn't it, 492 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:46,080 to keep it throwing something that's losing all this money. So, I just suggest to everyone, 493 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:52,560 you know, keep your wits about you, keep reading the odd book, and keep the grey matter, you know, 494 00:57:52,560 --> 00:58:00,320 going, basically. And play an instrument. Yeah. Play an instrument. Absolutely. That sounds like 495 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:06,720 perfect stuff. What a great, that's a positive note to end on. Gert and Paulie, thank you ever 496 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:11,760 so much. I'm going to wrap things up now. I press this button and the show ends. So, let's, 497 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:20,560 let's see what happens. Thanks for watching. Bye-bye. Ciao. 498 00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:07,440 Bye.